The scene that stuck out to me was when Unjust Cause argued that justice is a construct and that it can be overthrown by clever wordplay this stuck out to me because it highlighted the play's broad criticism of intellectual trends that was occurring in that time that prioritized word play skill over ethical reasoning, and the dangers of such teachings in shaping the morals of the youth and how it can then in turn lead to issues in the future. This scene also shows how the education system taught by Socrates and the sophists was corrupting the values of Athenian society which could lead to moral decay and social disruption. The contrast between the Just Cause and the Unjust Cause also really stood out to me, the Just Cause represented traditional morality and virtue, while the Unjust Cause represented sophistry and relativism, where truth is powerless against to the power of persuasion and word manipulation. Aristophanes used the debate to criticize the growing influence of sophists in Athens, who were seen for teaching people how to manipulate language and logic for personal gain instead of fostering genuine wisdom or virtue.

The passage that struck me most was the confrontation between the Just and Unjust Speeches. Specifically, when the Unjust Speech mocks the traditional virtues promoted by the Just Speech, asking, "Why should we hold on to these outdated morals when we can achieve more through cleverness?" (Clouds, lines 905-910). This moment stood out because it encapsulates the core tension in the play between adherence to tradition and the embrace of new, unorthodox ideas. The Unjust Speech's confidence and rhetorical dominance reveal the shifting priorities in Athenian society, where intellectual cleverness often overshadowed moral grounding.

Aristophanes seems to be critiquing the rise of sophisticated education, emphasizing the risks of valuing rhetorical skill over ethical integrity. Through satire, he portrays how such teachings can corrupt individuals and society by prioritizing personal gain over communal values. Aristophanes warns that when intellectual pursuits are divorced from morality, they can undermine the very fabric of society—respect for tradition, the gods, and the family unit. The debate between Just and Unjust Speeches is a microcosm of this broader societal struggle, highlighting the dangers of dismissing virtue for expediency or cleverness.

I would like to learn more about how entrenched sophist thinking was in Athens and what effects it had on the population.

In the final sections of "Clouds," a significant moment occurs when Strepsiades expresses his frustration with the educational system, saying, "What’s the use of education if it only brings trouble and no wealth?" (lines 892-894). This quote highlights Strepsiades' criticism of the notion of education as a tool for personal gain. This moment is significant because it captures Strepsiades' internal conflict and the theme of the play, which is the critique of sophistry and the question of the true value of education.

Aristophanes uses this moment to suggest that education should promote virtue and wisdom rather than just material success; in other words, education and philosophy should not be the means or the purpose of achieving wealth or status. The author, Aristophanes, advocates through his satire an understanding of knowledge that promotes true wisdom. His literary satire embodies Athenian society's obsession with superficial achievement, urging his audience to consider the purpose of education and the value of moral integrity over wealth.

I would like to know more about the primary sources that shaped Athenian or Greek culture before during and after their time

I really enjoy the matters of the Debate within Clouds Section 5, to focus on the aspect of tradition from Just and the aspect of unorthodox thinking from unjust, we definitely see as the audience two different aspects of people brought within the time of Athens and see how they follow or don't follow the matters of traditions and rules. When Unjust would bring up questions that would catch Just off-gusrd or even themselves to ponder into thought, to see that maybe they are in the wromg for following traditin or thinking of that way? Or what about is their thinking even the right way? Or why are they at Unjust's throats for just trying to make people question themselves and question the world amongst their feet? I think the West authors were trying to make us see the both sides of the Athenians and see where they would come together or how they would interact with one another and their upbringings. I would definitely love to see if there was a Just who had the same thoughts of an Unjust and see how they would struggle with their thoughts of traditions.

In clouds sections 5 and 6, the one detail that stood out to me the most was when Strepsiades burned down the thinkery in response to his son Pheidippides's new mindset. He found it immoral to a point where he saw it as an abomination and so he gets rid of the thinkery as a result.

With this detail, I think the author is trying to tell us that the Sophists and their way of thinking is an abomination. He is probably using pheidippides as an example of what the sophists are doing to athens. By having Strepsiades burn down the thinkery, he prompts the audience to do the same, to get rid of the sophists.

What I want to know is why did the author immediately go to violence? Are the sophists THAT big of a problem? Are they THAT difficult to get rid of that burning it all down is the only way to get rid of them?

In section 5 and 6 delves into Aristophanes' Clouds, dissecting its critique of Sophistic teaching and the implications of unchecked rationality. Through Pheidippides' justification of filial violence, Aristophanes satirically exposes the dangers of prioritizing intellectual agility over moral character. The chapter explores how Aristophanes employs this satire to caution against the unbridled pursuit of intellectualism, emphasizing the need for moral restraint and ethical considerations in education. By drawing parallels with biblical teachings, Aristophanes underscores the enduring relevance of his critique, inviting reflection on the interplay between rationality, morality and education.

The passage Clouds Section 5 in particular jumped out at me as I was reading through this week’s primary source readings is the builded up to Peloponnesian War between Sparta and Athens. One detail is “ Athenian democracy came at a great cost that was borne largely by the members of the Delian League, who were unhappy not only because of the financial burdens but also because of their loss of autonomy’(231)”. This show why the Athens start the war.

In this week’s readings from Clouds, Aristophanes presents a sharp critique of Athenian society, particularly its values, politics, and the educational methods that influence young minds. One passage that stands out is the debate between Right (or Just) and Wrong (or Unjust) in the play.This piece smoothly compares new, advanced ideals that Aristophanes seems to attack for encouraging moral relativism with old Athenian values. Through satire, he draws attention to the ways that some intellectual currents may persuade Athenians to lose regard for social order and elders, which would result in a moral decline.

Aristophanes probably meant to warn against these changes, particularly the Sophists' increasing power and ability to question accepted rules. He suggests free intellectual ideas might damage the basis of Athens' society by exaggerating the potential consequences of sophistic schooling.

The public's response to Clouds' initial performance is something I'd like to investigate further. Was Aristophanes' humor mainly regarded as humorous amusement by the Athenians, or did they see it as a serious statement on the risks of sophistry? This background provides light on how common people in Athens at the time viewed the cultural changes taking place there.

To me, the nature of Better Argument and Worse Argument are interesting because of how the winning argument is ultimately decided by the reality of the current state of Athens. Most of the people in the crowd themselves have gotten to where they are because they’ve been able to weasel their way out of punishment rather than upholding morals and therefore arguing for morals. Essentially, these two arguments are only “better” or “worse” in the sense that one adheres to the standards of the gods and therefore societal betterment, while the other completely disregards responsibility for others in the pursuit of selfish gain. The only reason why Worse Argument wins is because of how the regression of Athens is living and current proof of reality; people everywhere are willing to cheat their way through life and therefore is the only argument for such a way of life. The current culture of Athens is portrayed as stale, as we see how Socrates himself prays to the Clouds for the elements rather than Zeus.

• What passage or detail in particular jumped out at you as you read through this week’s primary source readings?

What stood out to me was when Strepsiades visits the Thinkery but cannot adjust to the school's philosophical way of life. He enrages Socrates, who is normally calm, with his foolishness and asks him to leave. Strepsiades returns home and instructs his son to enroll at the school in his place. Pheidippides, Strepsiades' son, is skeptical at first but becomes a willing student after witnessing a debate between just and unjust speech. When he returns home he argues with his then-philosophic son over poetry and he ends up losing, this enrages Strepsides and he then sets fire to the Thinkery.

• What do you think the author was trying to communicate?

I think the author was trying to communicate to Socrates, was that sooner or later Athens would become wary of the Gadfly's ability to charm the city's leading young men toward a life committed to thinking, a life that takes them not only away from everyday issues, but one that potentially damages the social structures upon which societies are built.

• What would you like to find out more about?

I would like to learn more about the Just and Unjust speech that persuaded Pheidippides into a perfect philosophic product from the thinkery.

In 'Clouds' section 5 and section 6, Aristophanes uses satire on philosophy and education-particularly sophism vehicles to honor shrewd argument above morality. In Section 5, Socrates inducts Strepsiades into the Thinkery and novel ideas that symbolize how detached the philosophy of the sophists is from reality and how it can debunk entrenched beliefs. In Section 6, Strepsiades learns crooked arguments to dupe his creditors, showing how the ethics of the sophists lie in winning at any cost, even above morality. The play picks up criticism regarding the way the sophists make weaker arguments stronger, and this concerns Aristophanes about an education that values persuasion over ethical integrity.

In 'Clouds', Aristophanes lambasts the moral and social implications of sophistic philosophy, particularly in its elevation of cunning argument over truth and ethical accountability. He uses Socrates and the Thinkery to satirize how new intellectual trends encourage manipulation and self-interest, mocking how the sophist can strengthen the weaker argument. Through the main character, Strepsiades, Aristophanes cries out for the erosion of high values, such as respect for gods, family, and society, by showing him learning how to conduct deceptive rhetoric to avoid his debts. This play questions whether such philosophy is to society's real advantage or destroys its moral bases.

I want to learn more about the reception of 'Clouds' in Aristophanes' particularly how Athenians viewed its critique of Socrates and sophistication. Understanding whether they saw it as humorous, or a serious warning could offer insight into ancient attitudes toward changing educational values. I am also interested in Aristophanes' views-whether he genuinely saw sophistic teaching as harmful or was mainly poking fun. A far more revelatory question about its enduring cultural resonance might be the extent to which 'Clouds' has shaped the modern conception of philosophy and education.

I would like to discuss the moment of the Just and Unjust Speeches’ confrontation. Just Speech represents traditions and old ideals. It speaks about respect and moral guidance: “stand up from your seat for your elders when they approach”, “not to do anything shameful”, and “go to the Academy”… (p.156) In contrast, Unjust Speech symbolizes manipulations and words twists to win any arguments (just like sophists).

The moment that surprised me was how fast Just Speech gave up and left the stage. In ideal reality, they had to work together to create a balance and possibility of choice, but the representative of principles and morals just left all his principles and morals. Maybe in this way, Aristophanes wanted to show that society is already corrupted and tilted to the side of injustice. Ironically enough that the author, to show the manipulative sophistic speech, uses manipulations towards his audience to discredit poor Socrates (in reality the face of Just Speech). I see Aristophanes as a part of that corrupted society, who lives not at the expense of his own ups but at the expense of other people’s downs. It is not surprising that in the end, this chaos starts a chain reaction of even greater chaos and violence both in the play and in life.

• What passage or detail in particular jumped out at you as you read through this week’s primary source readings?

In Section 6, Socrates continues teaching Strepsiades and his son Pheidippides, and the play’s critique of intellectualism, like the idea that reasoning and education can be twisted to serve self-interest, even at the expense of ethics or societal normality. The most striking moment in Section 6 is when Pheidippides learns the argument about "the weaker argument" winning over the stronger one essentially, the idea that one can argue for anything, regardless of truth or morality, as long as the rhetorical techniques are good enough. This represents a critique of sophistry and its potential to corrupt individuals and society.

• What do you think the author was trying to communicate?

Aristophanes seems to be critiquing the rise of sophistry, a form of intellectualism that values winning arguments over seeking truth. Through the character of Socrates and the Thinkery, Aristophanes mocks the idea that rhetoric and logic could be used for immoral or selfish purposes. In my opinion the play conflicts between old and new, as represented by the traditional view of the gods versus the new intellectual approach that questions or dismisses their relevance. In a larger sense, Aristophanes is suggesting that these intellectual developments may be undermining the foundations of Greek society.

• What would you like to find out more about?

What I would like to find more about is How did the new intellectual movements (like Sophism and early forms of philosophy) challenge traditional Greek society, especially in terms of politics, religion, and education? and Did Aristophanes' depiction of Socrates as a godless, manipulative figure influence how later generations viewed Socrates?

A detail that Wells considers of particular interest in Clouds, sections 5 and 6, is when Pheidippides begins to rationalize beating his father, Strepsiades, using the logic abused in those classrooms lectured by Socrates. While viewing this moment as comical one’s position on rationality can be challenged once again when one asks what constitutes appropriate rhetorical skill in this case, as the behavior of Pheidippides is vile. Aristophanes appears to be targeting the structure of Sophistic teaching in that it promotes 'hard to abuse' methods which if abused could bring disintegration into society’s fundamental hierarchical components, in this case, shame on uninformed students who defy their elders.

Through this satire, Aristophanes may be using Bible teachings to warn his viewers against the oveus willingness to engage intellectually without the necessary moral self-restrain. By portraying Socrates’ school as a place where students go to baffle their enemies and supporters alike, the author invites even more attention about the ‘worst’ of these sophists and the whole education of society.

Also, I would like to understand the real practices of sophists in Athens and if indeed Aristophanes stays true to history in his Socrates’ character recreation in context of Socratic philosophy. I would also be keen to find out how Clouds was perceived in the audience back then, particularly amongst the followers of Socrates teachings.

• What passage or detail in particular jumped out at you as you read through this week’s primary source readings?

The passage that jumped out at me this week was when Strepsiades set fire to the Thinkery. As the climax of the play, it was definitely the most exciting as it showed him taking his revenge on the institution which he once revered.

• What do you think the author was trying to communicate? 

I think the author was trying to communicate the dangerous outcomes of swaying toward unorthodox thought that Socrates promoted. Aristophanes clearly does not respect sophistry and Strepsiades setting fire to the Thinkery is a metaphor for the destructive potential of the misuse of intellectual pursuits. I find it ironic how he was initially so zealous in sending his son there, and in the end it became the object of his hatred.

• What would you like to find out more about?

I would like to find out about how contemporary audiences would have viewed this, because I understand that they would have reacted seriously to Pheidippides striking his father, so I wonder if there would be a somewhat similar reaction to this act of arson against the building that represents one pillar of Athenian philosophy.

The quote that interested me the most was 

“He’s to learn those two speeches: 

the stronger, whatever it may be, and the weaker,

which argues that unjust things and overturns the stronger. 

if not both, he’s to learn at least the unjust one by every art”

I believe the author is trying to show the way Socrates is teaching more about personal gain and sees them as “unjust” compared to seeking knowledge to find the full answers and not just to satisfy yourself. I would like to see how Socrates' teaching influenced their society and why this way of thinking was bad for their society.